Curse

Pugs Not Drugs · Mar 08, 2011, 04:09 PM // 16:09

What is the purpose of buffing all these once underpowered proffesions through the roof? Now the professions that were once viable in PvE become underpowered, and the cycle continues. Look at the recent Derv buff for example. Warriors are now pretty much outdone by Dervs in almost every way. Dervs now have the ability to do damage, support, survive, and nuke in one bar. In fact, the update to smiting monks made elementalists pretty much useless, the update to mesmers made rangers useless in pve, and the update to rits made all ranged dps useless.

I appreciate that these professions are getting buffed and am not ungrateful at all, but can they please be toned down a little? As it is now, I almost prefered the previous forms of these professions.

Skyy High · Mar 08, 2011, 04:45 PM // 16:45

I wasn't aware that the derv update nerfed 100b or dragon slash or earthshaker...

Spiritz · Mar 08, 2011, 04:54 PM // 16:54

I was shocked then i lol`d - ive never seen a post yet where someone cries a war is outdone by a derv before.Someones upset because for once the warrior has been outdone - probably a first in gw.
You just have to accept after any skill nerfs/buffs the balance of power ( most used profession ) shifts - always been that way and always will be that way.

Kosar The Cruel · Mar 08, 2011, 04:57 PM // 16:57

--Warriors are now pretty much outdone by Dervs in almost every way
Not true. Like Sky said, 100b, Dragon Slash, and Earthshaker are all still viable options for a warrior in PvE.

--the update to smiting monks made elementalists pretty much useless
Again, Not true. Yes, Monks do have RoJ now and it's quite the powerful spell, but many people/groups/what have you will avoid it due to the fact that it causes scatter in HM. After RoJ and SoJ(strictly for farming or 600/smiting it seems) Smite Monks don't seem to common (to me at least). PUGs always want a heal monk.

--the update to mesmers made rangers useless in pve
I'm not sure on this one, but I doubt it. Rangers haven't brought much into PvE since Splinter Barrage if I recall correctly.

SmokingHotImolation · Mar 08, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

Warriors are now pretty much outdone by Dervs in almost every way.

stopped reading. This is false

_Alice_ · Mar 08, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

1.) Mesmers did zero damage before their update and needed a PVE buff badly
2.) The Dervish primary attribute was absolute crap in PVE
2.) Both of the aforementioned professions could still be effective before their updates
3.) Communing spirits are still better than channeling spirits, SoS just made it popular to spam (the real imbalanced skill is not SoS but summon spirits)
4.) Rangers are AMAZING (if you argue with me on this you are doing it wrong) just cause ranger heroes stink doesn't mean people playing them do too.
5.) Warriors still get invited everywhere but maybe DoA, relax.
6.) NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.
7.) I play all professions in HM and ALL are viable.

AndrewSX · Mar 08, 2011, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.

Apart Monks, Necs, Mes, Rits and meeles, expecially in HM.

FengShuiDove · Mar 08, 2011, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Dervs sucked. Mesmers sucked in PvE.

Stumme said not to expect complete profession overhauls like we've seen, but I think the following attribute lines could use major revamping:

Motivation
Wilderness Survival
Smiting Prayers
Deadly Arts
Marksmanship

Paragon has Command which is awesome and Leadership which has some good skills and is a pretty solid primary. Monks have DF/Heal/Prot which are all excellent, and a few good options in Smiting, but the Smiting elites would be a good place to start. Assassins have Crit Strikes and Dagger Mastery which allow them to do a lot, and Shadow Arts isn't bad, but Deadly Arts is among the worst lines in the game with a few exceptions. Marksmanship lacks all potency and variability with, again, a handful of exceptions.

These ought to be tackled next.

Sir Mad · Mar 08, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

--the update to mesmers made rangers useless in pve
I'm not sure on this one, but I doubt it. Rangers haven't brought much into PvE since Splinter Barrage if I recall correctly.

Splinter barrage is still amazing, provided foes are packed (this is why I go with a zerg of minions), and they can still do a better job at interrupting than mesmers from my experience. Yeah, ranger heroes suck (mainly because they don't know how to spam skills like barrage or Needling Shot, or because they love to cast splinter on the monk instead of themselves), but that doesn't mean players do. And actually, interrupt heroes are incredibly good at that, and they can also do some DPS at the same time and spread conditions for example.

Hells Fury · Mar 08, 2011, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Yup relax, they've only crippled my precious WE endurance scythe.

Skyy High · Mar 08, 2011, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Alice_

6.) NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.

Wut?

100b + MoP says hi.

*lemming* · Mar 08, 2011, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

What is the purpose of buffing all these once underpowered proffesions through the roof?

Because it's less embarrassing to grossly break something than to buff it a little and have it still not see play.

Cuilan · Mar 08, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

Dervs now have the ability to do damage, support, survive, and nuke in one bar.

Haven't seen any such build and if there was such a build, I'm sure it would have been greatly discussed by now. Anyone can throw together a bunch of skills that do various things, but that doesn't make it good.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 08, 2011, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Alice_

6.) NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.

Play in hard mode, elementalist damage is shit.

joseph Mckennie · Mar 08, 2011, 07:20 PM // 19:20

If some other profession "takes your job", then maybe its time you changed your play style up a bit. Saying a mesmer made rangers useless makes me assume that you think rangers are ONLY good for interrupting things. Dervish took a warriors job? Try using something other than hundred blades or some other form of spread damage. All professions can perform multiple roles (this is especially true for the necromancer, who can pretty much do anything EXCEPT interrupt things) and each one can fit a niche more effectively than some other class. For example, rangers make pretty good interrupters, sure, but have you tried using condition skills? Its hard for an enemy to deal with being burned, poisoned, bleeding, crippled, and if you're into BHA, even dazed, and rangers can deal these conditions faster than anyone else I can think of.
And as a side note, I do wish they'd do something to make elementalists more useful in HM PVE. Since every enemy has a + 32847384728347 ele resistance, air magic is the only thing that seems to do any real damage >: O

chuckles79 · Mar 08, 2011, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Dervs still only have 70AR and no shield.

Yes if you are going from the current end-game meta philosophy that "DPS trumps all defensive considerations (that's what monks are for)", then yes the warrior has been surpassed in mob fighting.

Which given the original concept of dervishes and the high dmg output of scythes, is not a bad thing.

So basically a derv can wade in and pump out more damage to a mob with both VoS and SandShards running, but he's less survivable and needs more monk attention.

Honestly, the only profession update that was overpowered was rits. However they deserved the love since they were left in the dust like their Factions counterpart, but didn't get the nice "god mode" skill update like they did.

AmbientMelody · Mar 08, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Dervs still only have 70AR and no shield.

Yes if you are going from the current end-game meta philosophy that "DPS trumps all defensive considerations (that's what monks are for)", then yes the warrior has been surpassed in mob fighting.

Which given the original concept of dervishes and the high dmg output of scythes, is not a bad thing.

So basically a derv can wade in and pump out more damage to a mob with both VoS and SandShards running, but he's less survivable and needs more monk attention.

Honestly, the only profession update that was overpowered was rits. However they deserved the love since they were left in the dust like their Factions counterpart, but didn't get the nice "god mode" skill update like they did.

When you make PvE too easy, that is what happens ... unique features of each class don't matter any longer, it's only about spammable AoE armour-ignoring damage. Remove/nerf PvE skills and the absurdity of 'infinite' armour/damage spam will be gone. Then, people will start to appreciate 590hp Warrior with a shield & 80AL(+20PD) armour yet again. Actually, it might turn out that Rangers, Paragons and Eles will be in higher demand, for all the great utility & flexibility they bring to the team.

LifeInfusion · Mar 08, 2011, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Alice_

6.) NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.

I loled. Not even going to argue this, the dead horse has been revived and beaten again 100s of times these past years after the HM update.

And re: Broadhead Arrow, Concussion shot (daze is the only strong Ranger condition), look at Fevered Dreams. For PVE Poison is boring, bleeding is boring, cripple is generally boring (more so if it's single target). D-shot on the other hand, is still indispensable; Barrage is a great conduit for GDW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Dervs still only have 70AR and no shield.

More like 70+15+10 = 95 (Windwalker + 10 Mysticism) vs 100 from hammer warriors with sentinel's...

It's worse when it's a sword warrior. Axe gets by, but sword warriors are completely obsolete, perhaps even for SY! spam.

100B: Vow of Strength with a Scythe
Dragonslash: Only used for SY! spam, but with Scythes + Onslaught/Avatar of Balthazar you get about once every 2-3 seconds if conditions are favorable or once every 6-8 seconds at worst (before FGJ! on D/W). Balthazar's Rage + Pious Fury makes this lean toward the favorable conditions.

For axes/swords you can just spec 12 in that, 8+1+1 Mysticism, 10 in Tactics for +16 shield. You're down +5 armor. Big deal.
Completely off the top of my head, PVE Dervish can get similar results...
D/W: Aura slicer - Gash - Sun and moon/Whirlwind attack -Galrath Slash +32/Silverwing Slash +32/Standing Slash +34/Soldier's Strike +30/Thrill of Victory +33 - [Elite] - Pious Fury- Balthazar's Rage (2*7*2=28 burning damage), SY!.
D/W: Any elite, Dismember, cyclone axe , Executioner's Strike +34/Furious Axe +29 (bit higher + damage than Dervish stuff)/Soldier's Strike +30/Thrill of Victory +33, whirlwind attack, Heart of Fury, Zealous Renewal (22 holy), SY!

To be honest a D/W with Cyclone axe + Triple chop + Soldier's Strike/Furious Axe has better energy than W/ with Warrior's Endurance due to 4 regen + Zealous renewal (2 energy/second). (Triple chop is meh when you get +78 from Heart of Holy Flame on the same recharge.) For any build, Avatar of Grenth's +10 will make the attacks do more than warriors not using conjures.

To use Cyclone axe as adrenaline gain, a warrior must use a zealous weapon, lowering damage by 3 (vamp). Without Zealous or Warrior's Endurance, there is simply no way to afford 5 energy every 4 seconds. Once you put in Soldier's Strike/Furious Axe (5 energy every 4 or 6 seconds) the warrior needs to permanently be on Zealous because it'd be 5 energy every 2 to 2.4.

Also heroes cannot use Flail so all you have is warrior's endurance bars.

These builds are just using minimal Dervish skills (so you can use a shield). If instead of a +30 attack skill (or +20 whirlwind attack) you use a +22 damage AOE flash enchantment.... or even sub in Heart of Holy Flame for 22 + 4 burn = +78 there's very little reason to run energy based attack skills (more so with Avatar of Lyssa).

Also even if you only run 1 enchantment, if you have orders+ anything like SoH you have enough for 3 enchantments.

AmbientMelody · Mar 08, 2011, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

More like 70+15+10 = 95 (Windwalker + 10 Mysticism) vs 100 from hammer warriors with sentinel's...

More like 70+10+10, tbh. There is a certain benefit to having just a single or no enchantments on you permanently, unless the focus is on maintaining many enchantments, which I wouldn't call optimal for most Dervish builds. Don't forget the raw +16 defense from shield against physical attacks and generally superior HP to Dervish, as well as thin reliance on energy in order to be effective. In many ways Dervish is more vulnerable than Warrior, when it comes to shutting him down or limiting his overall effectiveness.

yum · Mar 08, 2011, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

It's worse when it's a sword warrior. Axe gets by, but sword warriors are completely obsolete, perhaps even for SY! spam.
.

That is why they should bring back the old Disarm: 12s r or even 8 or 10s recharge, add 90% fail with str <3